瑞·达里欧对话印度总理莫迪

2019/11/20 18:14
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瑞·达里欧对话印度总理莫迪的译文稿,在对话中,莫迪谈及国际秩序与冲突的现状,并谈及了印度的“赋权”改革。

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Ladies and gentlemen, to join the Prime Minister in conversation

女士们,先生们,将与印度总理纳伦德拉·莫迪展开对话的

Please welcome to stage The Founder, Chairman and Co-Chief Investment Officer of Bridge Water Associations, Mr. Ray Dalio 

是桥水基金的创始人、董事长兼联合首席投资官:有请瑞·达利欧先生上台

Welcome, let’s just jump right into it 

热烈欢迎,我们直接切入正题吧

In our 15min, which is way too short, I’d like to divide it in half 

鉴于对话时间只有短短15分钟,我想把它分成两部分

And get your perspective of the world as a whole 

首先谈谈你对当下世界的总体看法

And then, focus on the other half of your perspective of India so that we can learn more about it 

而后聊聊你眼中的印度,让在座听众更好地了解这个国家

But before I do, rather than knowing what you think I’d like to a little focus on how you think 

但在了解你的这些想法之前,我想先了解一下你的思维方式

We were talking before about meditation. We both mediate.

先前我们聊到过冥想,我们都是冥想者

And it has an effect on how you think I think.

我觉得冥想对你的思维方式一定有所影响

So I wonder whether you can share some thoughts about how you think and, how that pertains to looking at the world

因此我想知道你能否分享一下自己的思维方法,以及这种思考方式与世界观的关联

You’ve asked a very important question

你问了一个至关重要的问题 

It is true that whether it’s a man’s life journey or a journey of health, conflicts at every other step is a natural phenomenon

事实是,无论是在人的生命之途亦或健康之途中,冲突自然会不断发生

So at that time we should develop a mechanism for conflict resolution

因此,我们应该在冲突发生时构建解决冲突的机制

I can vouch from my experience and you as well, being a person related to meditation.

我们俩都可以以自身作为冥想者的经验作证 

We know very well that meditation plays a vital role in having a balanced thoughts, a balanced life and the right view of the world

我们深知,冥想在培养平衡的思想、平衡的生活

以及正确的世界观上起着举重若轻的作用

When you observe the situations by detaching yourself

通过抽离自身,你可以洞察整个形势

You end up walking towards the direction of balanced thoughts and meaningful decisions 

最终自然会向着平衡的思想与有意义的决策迈进

During the entire process, the people who are associated with regular meditation feel a particular sense of energy within themselves 

在整个过程中,定期冥想的人能感受到自己浑身上下充沛的能量感

So, yes, you said right, that meditation has its own importance 

所以你说得对,冥想自有其重要性

But, as far as the world’s condition is in question, we are seeing that conversations on peace have mostly existed during this and the previous century

而当我们谈到天下大势,关于和平的对话多数发生在上世纪与本世纪

Whereas, the most number of conflicts also happened during this and the previous century

然而大多数冲突同样发生在上世纪与本世纪

As a result of which holier than thou, the idea of superiority, rejection of the existence of equal life and everyone should grow together, 

出于占据道德制高点的优越感,人们拒绝接受众生皆平等、携手共成长的现实 

such lack in ideas becomes the cause of us ending up in struggles

这样的短视导致我们深陷斗争之中难以自拔

Our road to growth also became attaining victory, demanding others.

发展之路异化为攫取胜利、苛求他人之路

Amidst all this, conflicts rose.

在此之下,冲突频发

I believe, in this world, true thinking can help us find a way out

我深信,真正的思考有助于我们在当今世界中寻求出路 

Meditation tends to bring one above circumstances and look down on them

冥想能让人超脱于客观因素之上,俯瞰一切

And I wonder if we can talk about the world from the perspective of five major issues 

不知我们能否从五大议题的维度谈谈这个世界

It seems to me that in the world, particularly in the developed world there’s a great deal of conflict you talked about.

在我看来,全球范围内,特别是在发达国家中,爆发了你提及的诸多冲突

That the rich and the poor, the capitalists and the socialists, those different values

富人与穷人之间,资本主义者与社会主义者之间,不同价值观之间的冲突

So conflict, as it affects capitalism, as it affects the way we are with each other is one dimension

所以,第一个维度是冲突,它影响着资本主义,影响着我们相处的方式

Second dimension is the international changing of the world order 

第二个维度是世界秩序在国际舞台上的变化

The rise of powers, India, China, and others and the associated conflicts with those 

印度、中国等大国的崛起,以及与之相关的冲突

The third is a reduced effectiveness of reserved currency countries to be able to ease their monetary policy

第三个维度是储备货币国家实行宽松货币政策的效力不断削弱

So there is not as much stimulation 

进而导致经济刺激不足

The forth, that you touch on is climate 

第四个维度是你谈及的气候问题

And the fifth is technology

第五个维度是科技

I want leave that open to you to describe what you think the emerging world order will be like in light of those things and feel free to touch on any of them if you like 

你可以从这五个维度对新兴世界秩序的模样畅所欲言

或者任意选择一个点展开

You’re right that there was a time when a bipolar world existed and because of this, every other country was part of some group

你说的对,曾经这是个两极世界,每一个国家都归属于某一个阵营

Understanding the situation had also become a tradition

要明白这样的形势已是明日黄花

Today the world has changed 

今天的世界已是时过境迁

Today we have a multipolar world 

今天我们生活在一个多极世界中

Today every country of the world is interdependent and inter connected 

每一个国家相互依存,相互联系

Each country has its own reasonable needs and its technology plays a role in it

每一个国家都有合理的需求,都有自己的技术在世界上大放异彩

And in such conditions, view of the world three, four decades ago has ended

在这样的形势下,四十年前对第三世界的看法已成为历史

We have to change our mind

我们必须转变思维

Today the importance of the smallest of the countries is increasing 

如今,即使是最小的国家重要性都在与日俱增

Everyone is required somewhere

每个人都有用武之地

That is why we have chosen to strengthen this multipolar world 

这就是为什么我们选择强化这个多极世界

We may have a myriad of mindsets

人类的思维模式迥然不同

We may be socialist, capitalist, whichever thinking we may have but ultimately for the welfare of mankind 

我们也许是社会主义者,也许是资本主义者

无论我们思想属于哪个流派,终极目的都是人类的福祉

Wu must focus on what we are contributing towards it

我们必须关注自身致力的事业

There was a time when power was associated with expansionism

曾几何时权力与扩张主义挂钩

The number of regions you own, the number of regions you can own with your power 

与你拥有多少领土、在你权力范围内能够拥有多少领土挂钩

On the basis of such expansionism the world power was analyzed. 

那时的世界大国正是基于这样的扩张主义分出强弱高下

That era has ended

然而这样的时代已经终结

Today, evolutionism is growing over expansionism

如今,进化主义的势头已盖过扩张主义

What great height are you achieving in growth, what innovation are you finding, 

你实现了怎样的高增长?你发明了怎样的创新?

what changes are you bringing among your people, 

你为你的人民带来了怎样的改变

how important the intervention of changing technology is happening

对日新月异的技术进行干预是怎样重要

how you manage to vertically uplift your region, 

你怎样擢升自己领土上的人民

and the importance of doing good is going to increase 

善政亲民的重要性也在不断提高

and therefore, healthy competition: we move towards evolutionism and grow vertically 

因此形成了健康的竞争模式:向着进化主义的方向迈进,垂直发展

It we grow vertically then its light will be reflected upon our underdeveloped public 

如果我们能过垂直发展,那么发展的光辉就能惠及我们贫穷落后的公众

This is why we have to work in this direction 

这就是我们必须朝此方向努力的原因

On the other side, within the last two, three centuries, the growth rate in the field of technology witnessed by the world 

另一方面,在过去的两、三个世纪中,世界见证了技术领域的增长速度

has now increased profoundly, compared to before

但与现在的飞速增长相比,过去的成就也不过是小巫见大巫

Earlier, the progress in technology was in bits and pieces but nowadays, there’s no single aspect of life which is not driven by technology

先前,技术领域的进步是跬步慢行,而当今生活的方方面面都由技术驱动

Therefore, we have to train our upcoming generation for innovation with human compassion because you don’t want to create robots 

因此,下一代人必须接受人性化的创新训练,因为我们不想创造机器人

Instead, we want to create living humans.

我们想创造活生生的人

To present the world with compassion and technology, 

呈现一个人性与科技结合的世界

to create a balance between human values would be a great responsibility

在不同的人类价值观中实现平衡,这是我们背负的重责

And I believe that the world will have to focus a lot on that 

我深信世界将不得不对这一议题给予高度关注

While you describe what we must do, I wonder your thoughts about whether we will do it 

and how we have to approach that

你阐述了什么是我们必须做的

那么你认为我们是否会去付诸行动?又该采取怎样的方法去解决?

So when we say ‘We’, it’s each individual 

当我们说“我们”的时候,它指代的是每一个个体

So let’s look at some of them 

让我们看看都有哪些冲突

We have the trade conflict, we have a technology conflict, we have a capital and currency conflict going on 

我们要面对贸易冲突,技术冲突,资本与货币冲突

and we have geo-political conflicts going on 

地缘政治冲突也在四处爆发

we don’t have a world organization or world rulebook

并不存在什么世界组织或全球通行的规则书

I have to be a pragmatist and you’re having to be a pragmatist 

我必须做一位实用主义者,你大概也是一位实用主义者

How will we work together 

那么我们如何才能通力合作呢?

How will that play out in your mind 

你认为上述冲突会以何种方式告终?

You have described the present war in exact words 

你已经用精准的语言描述过当今的战争了

Just the way the kinds of war have increased, in the same way the reasons for war have also increased 

正如战争的形式层出不穷,战争的理由同样也在增加

Water as well as land are the cause for war 

水源和土地是战争的起因

Sky and space are also causes for war 

天空和太空也是战争的起因

We are digging new arenas for war and this is a sign of mankind’s weakness

我们不断地为战争发掘新的角斗场,这暴露了人性的弱点

This is true that when the UN was formed, an institution which would act as a catalytic agent in conflict resolution 

建立联合国的初衷

确实是寄望于这样一家机构能在解决国家冲突时扮演催化剂的角色

but unfortunately we failed to develop the UN as an institution

可惜,我们没能将联合国发展成理想中的机构

After 70 years, it felt that the UN would undergo reforms and bring a change but it did not happen

70年过去了,联合国似乎是要经历一些改革做出一些改变,然而最后都成徒劳

The UN would now become 75 years old

现在联合国的75岁生日就要到了

I would want every powerful country to join and determine the nature, norms and the responsibilities of other countries for the reformed UN in 2021

我希望每一个大国都能够参与进来

与其他国家一道共同决定2021年改革后的联合国的性质、规范与责任

If we satisfy ourselves with the UN’s role during an epidemic or a natural calamity 

如果我们都只是满足于联合国在瘟疫或自然灾害期间发挥的作用

then uniting the world would not happen

那么世界大同的一天永远不会到来

Another unfortunate situation is that powerful people have taken to forming the UN as an instrument instead of an institution, 

另一个遗憾是,有权有势的人将联合国改造为一种工具而不是一家机构

because of which the UN failed to provide a neutral, global, rule-based contribution

因此联合国无法做出不偏不倚的、惠及全球的、基于规则的贡献

Where does conflict begin?

那么冲突起源于哪里呢?

In my opinion, some people think so highly of themselves that they don’t believe in law, whereas some people are buried under the burden of law 

在我看来,一些人自视甚高蔑视法律,而另一些人则不堪法律的重负

If we want to run the world, then we ought to follow the rules 

如果我们想让世界正常运转,那么我们就应该遵循规则

The universe is also working because every element like the Sun obey its rules, the Moon follows its rules, the Earth follows its rules and none of them break the rules 

宇宙运动自有其法,太阳、月亮和地球均循法而动,无一例外

Similarly, the countries of the world would will have to obey global rules and we should act collectively against violation of rules 

同样地,世界各国也应遵守全球规则,团结一致打击违规行为

Only then we can isolate such a power and try bringing them onto the correct path 

只有这样我们才能孤立违规的国家,将其引回正轨

That’s one of the reasons I started with the topic of meditation to rise above it and hopefully deal with the common good and the capacity to do that 

这是我以冥想为谈话切入点的原因之一

这样才能超脱自身,以期能够正视共同利益,并以共同利益为纲行事

I hope your musts get accomplished 

我希望你的坚持能够得到实现

Turing to India, one of the things I think that you’ve done, well you’ve done many remarkable things 

回到印度,我想谈谈你实现的成就之一,好吧,你已经实现了太多非凡之事

but one of them is to represent all of the people in India or the vast majority

但其中一件事是,你成功地代表了全印度的人民,或他们当中的绝大多数

You’re not representing the poor or the rich 

你既不代表穷人,也不代表富人

You’re not representing on faction in relationship to anther 

你不代表相对于某一方的派系

You’ve joined the country together 

你做的是让整个国家团结起来

You’ve made tremendous accomplishments

并实现了无与伦比的成就

You’ve brought something like 500 million toilets and, you’ve brought water 

你为人民带来了5亿间厕所,你带来了清洁的水源

and you will bring water to all of those people 

日后,你会将水输送到千家万户

And you’re changing their wellbeing in a united way 

你以协调统一的方式改变着人民的福祉

So you don’t seem to encounter the same political challenges that a lot of leaders face 

所以你没有像其他领导人一样面对政治挑战 

You seem to have brought it together 

你似乎让人民团结在了一起

And you’re creating an economy that is making a great deal of progress for all of the people in a broader way 

你正在创造一个快速发展、能够广泛造福全体人民的经济体

I’d like to get your sense of what is it like to be in your shoes 

我想知道站在你的立场上这是一种什么样的感受

I don’t have a political background. I come from a very common family 

我没有任何政治背景,我出生在一个非常普通的家庭

I have not seen poverty in books, instead I have lived in it 

我不是从书本中学到贫穷的,我曾经亲身经历过贫穷

I have lived my life in poverty 

过去,我生活贫困

I have gotten here by selling tea on railway platforms, and therefore feeling this pain comes naturally to me,

我靠着在铁路月台上卖茶来到这里,因而贫困的伤痛于我是再自然不过的体验

that my strength, my time and my work benefits them 

而我的力量、时间与工作都致力于造福穷人

I have managed to eliminate poverty in India at a very steady rate in a few years 

在短短几年里,我设法稳步消灭印度的贫困

My method to eliminate poverty is by empowering the poor 

我消灭贫困的办法,是为穷人赋权

If we give power to the poor, then they themselves would come out of it

如果我们赋予穷人以力量,那么他们将从中获得新生

That is why there are various schemes

这就是为什么我们制定了各种方案

Second thing is that the poor need dignity 

其次,穷人需要尊严

When I give them a toilet, I’m not giving them a facility, I’m giving them dignity

当我向他们提供厕所的时候,不仅仅是为他们提供一个设施,更是在给他们尊严

When I open a person’s bank account, his balance does not matter

在某人开设银行账户的时候,他账户上的余额并不重要

The fact that he opened the bank account is his dignity 

他开设银行账户的这一事实,便是他的尊严

That even though I am poor, I also go to the bank like a rich person

“尽管我穷困潦倒,但我仍像富人一样走进银行”

This empowerment, this dignity, changes his thinking 

这种赋权,这种尊严会改变穷人的思维方式

and I have targeted that and have achieved success in my country

而我以此为目标,并在我的国家成功实现

My inner satisfaction is that the poor are saying that they are going to eradicate poverty.

我内心深感满足,因为穷人都在说他们要根除贫困

Nothing beats this satisfaction.

什么都比不上这份满足感

That is why I took this work 

这是我接受这份工作的原因

I don’t have the nature of power, I don’t accept it.

我天生不喜追求权力,不愿接受它 

I accept the nature of service

我天生热爱服务他人,我接受自己的天性

Wherever you are, service must be your prime nature.

无论你身在何处,你最基本的天性都应是服务他人

I keep trying and with the blessing of the elders 

在长者的祝福下,我不断尝试

I keep trying to utilize my power with this nature of service 

我试着顺应自身服务他人的天性,运用掌有的权利

Help others and bring about change

帮助他人,带来改变

The most important point here is when India undergoes a change, then it’s not just a personal change.

最重要的是,当印度经历变革的时候,这不仅是一种个人层面的改变

When I build toilets, the open defecation-free society is built, then the numbers of the world also change 

我建造厕所的时候,是在建设一个没有随地便溺的开放社会

世界使用厕所的人口数字也会随之变化

If I remove poverty from my country, then the world poverty numbers also change 

如果我在印度消除了贫困,那么世界贫困人口的数字也会随之变化

In other words, a change in India adds to the change in the world 

也就是说,印度的变革为世界的变革添砖加瓦

This satisfies me that the task I have been given of my country leads me to change the world as well

我的国家对我的嘱托同样在引领我改变世界,我对此深感满足

Like the world has decided to become TB free by 2030, we have decided to do it by 2025

比如世界卫生组织决定2030年彻底消灭结核病,而印度决定在2025年就实现这一目标

If we achieve this, then the world won’t have to wait till 2030

如果我们实现了目标,那么全世界都不必等到2030年

Maybe they succeed it by 2028

也许2028年就能成功消灭结核病

This means that India’s contribution is for the global good 

这就意味着印度所做的贡献是为全球共同利益而战

It would play a major role and this satisfaction is experienced by me 

印度的重要性不言而喻,而我有幸能够从中获得满足感

One more question because we’re out of time 

我再问一个问题,因为已经超时了

Your combination of human capital and technology is very interesting

你将人力资本和技术相结合的做法非常有趣

In much of the world technology is replacing jobs and it increases the wealth gap

在世界大多数国家,技术正在取代人力,贫富差距不断拉大

I’d like your thoughts on combining your human capital and raising the capacity of human capital with technology,

我想知道在统筹人力资本、利用技术提高人力资本能力

and, using that as a combination to raise India 

最后将人力资本与技术紧密结合来提升印度上,你有什么样的见解

You have asked a very good question and it is very true.

这是个非常好的问题,说得一点没错 

India is a very fortunate country as 65% of our population is below the age of 35 years 

印度是一个非常幸运的国家,65%的人口都小于35岁

The necessity of skill development and human resource development as well on a global level, it produces a great strength 

在全球层面上同样需要技能与人力资源的开发,这么做会带来巨大的优势

When I’m in Saudi Arabia and I meet the majestic king, he very proudly tells me that 

我在造访沙特阿拉伯时,庄严的国王骄傲地告诉我

“Brother! I love you very much and do you know why?

“兄弟!我非常爱你,你知道为什么吗?

Because I was taught by an Indian teacher in my childhood.”

因为我幼时的老师是印度人。”

This means the human capital of India, taught the king of Saudi Arabia.

这说明印度的人力资本曾经教育过沙特阿拉伯的国王

This is such a great power and great use 

这是至高的权力,是“人尽其用”

I believe that we should work on the larger good, with human capital or with any other resources 

我相信我们应造福于更广大人民的利益,无论以人力资本或任何其他资源的形式

But we should bring about change within the time that suits.

但我们也应该及时带来改变

Create upgradations and if possible, then complete them before time 

创造出升级改善,如果可能的话提前实现计划

If space is going to be a global interest, then I should also focus on its development

如果太空的开发符合全球利益,那么我就应该将精力集中在太空开发上

As you know, India’s space program is different than the world’s space program 

如你所知,印度的太空项目与其他国家的不同

The expense of India’ Moon journey is lesser than a Hollywood film

我们的登月成本不及一部好莱坞大片

This is a very big achievement in itself 

这件事本身就是一项成就

This means my human resource managed to complete the Moon journey with lesser expenditure than the expenditure of a Hollywood film

这意味着我的人力资源成功将印度的登月成本压缩得比好莱坞大片还低

This means my human recourse capacity has given it a new power 

这意味着我的人力资源能力赋予了印度一种全新的力量

This is why, we should prepare such manpower that utilize minimum global resources and does not burden the world capabilities 

这就是我们应该储备人力的原因

我们要利用最少的全球资源,不增加全球人力负担

We should create a manpower that sees ahead of time as well 

我们应该培养远见卓识的人才队伍

Prepare technology with innovation spirit 

以创新精神创造科技

Nowadays, I am competing my youth with the world youth in a hackathon 

今天,我致力于让印度的年轻人与全球的年轻人一起征战黑客马拉松

because meeting of mind is needed in global upcoming leaderships

因为对未来的全球领军人物来说,思想的交流是必需的

Similarly, I am joining the youth of the startups around the world with my country’s startup youth 

同理,我致力于促成全球创业领域的年轻人与印度的年轻创业者之间的合作

so that the global manpower is bridged during the student age 

这样一来全球人力资源在他们的学生时代便已联结 

Even if they are in small numbers, I am giving my attention to it 

虽然人数不多,但是在他们身上倾注了我的注意力

I believe that this approach would emerge as a power in coming years which would cause a change in the world 

我深信未来几年,这种做法将会以一种新力量的形式兴起,为整个世界带来变革

Well, thank you for your perspective and also, thank you for what you are doing.

好,感谢您精彩的观点,也感谢您所做的一切

Thank you. Thank you,

谢谢,谢谢






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